In the first part of a two-part special, Chris Matthews of MSNBC fame joins Brian to discuss the steady state economy. The CASSE signatory comments on his favorite episodes of Hardball, his recent book This Country: My Life in Politics and History, his insights as a speechwriter for Jimmy Carter, and the resource impacts of population growth. Tune in next Monday for part 2!
In the first part of a two-part special, Chris Matthews of MSNBC fame joins Brian to discuss the steady state economy. The CASSE signatory comments on his favorite episodes of Hardball, his recent book This Country: My Life in Politics and History, his insights as a speechwriter for Jimmy Carter, and the resource impacts of population growth. Tune in next Monday for part 2!
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy, this is The Steady Stater, a podcast dedicated to discussing limits to growth and the steady state economy.
Brian Czech:Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Brian Czech. And our guest today is Chris Matthews. Yes, that Chris Matthews of Hardball fame. Hardball with Chris Matthews ran for 23 seasons, 1997 to 2020, primarily under the MSNBC banner. Chris also hosted the syndicated Chris Matthews Show for about 10 of those years. He's also a prolific author with a dozen titles on politics and history. A Beltway insider before he ever appeared on TV, he served as a Capitol police officer, a congressional staffer, a speechwriter for President Carter, and Chief of Staff for the late "Tip" O'Neill, Speaker of the House during the Reagan years. Chris holds 34 honorary degrees from various colleges and universities. Chris Matthews, welcome to The Steady Stater.
Chris Matthews:Thank you, Brian. It's great to be on.
Brian Czech:Well, it's great to have you. You know, I want to start by asking you what was your favorite and/or your most memorable episode of Hardball?
Chris Matthews:Oh, my God. You know, I don't know, I think it might have been -- it might have been Donald Trump in the campaign, the one he won, in'16. And it was about I asked him if there should be punishment for a woman who chooses to have an abortion. And he sort of wiggled around for a while -- he wasn't really ready for that. And he said, yes, there needs to be some kind of punishment. Well, of course, that was his understanding of what the pro-life movements about -- his understanding. And then, you know, an hour or two later, we got the call, words out he didn't mean that. He pulled that back. But I think it showed that he was a political newcomer. And he knew some of the language, but he didn't know the full meaning of the politics or the value system involved. And he gets -- he got caught showing he didn't know what he's talking about in that case. It certainly was that he wasn't consistent with the pro-life leaders.
Brian Czech:Right.
Chris Matthews:There's another time a guy, a young guy from California, talk show host, who kept using the word"Appeasement" with a capital A, of course. And I said, "Well, what was" -- I just, you always, it was a hunch -- my hunch was he didn't know what he was talking about. And I said,"Well, what was Appeasement?"
Brian Czech:Oh, boy.
Chris Matthews:He had no idea about -- he'd never heard of Sudetenland. He didn't know anything about Czechoslovakia, or what happened. He didn't know and what happened in '38, in Munich, and all that stuff. And he was just -- he sort of admitted it. And you know, I have to tell you, it's awful to say, but it is fun when people just don't know what they're talking about and you catch them. I have to tell you, that may be a wicked joy, but it's there.
Brian Czech:Right. I hope it doesn't happen today.
Chris Matthews:Well, try me.
Brian Czech:Yeah. Well, I understand you have another book in the hopper. But just as a teaser -- keep our Steady Staters whistles wetted -- what's the title of this new book?
Chris Matthews:Well, let me just tell you the book that's out there now that just came out. This past June is This Country - My Life in Politics and History. And it's a memoir, but it also talks about all the coverage, the big stories I was able to cover in person -- the Berlin Wall coming down, the first-ever all-races elections in South Africa, the Good Friday talks up in Northern Ireland. So it really talks about "you were there" kind of thing, try to share with the readers, what it's like to be on the frontlines covering these stories. But it also has a lot of politics in it, all the elections going back to -- my God back to -- I guess, the Eisenhower election in '52, which I remember as a kid. And so it's really kind of a history book from a first-person perspective. I do have another one, but it's still in negotiations with Simon and Schuster as of last night around midnight, so I can't reveal it yet unless I get an email during this conversation today.
Brian Czech:Okay, well, that gives us a good reason to get you back on later.
Chris Matthews:Yeah. Well, I had some ideas that, you know, I wanted to do a Churchill book, because he's my hero, and I -- but it's very hard to sell that today with some people, because they think it's -- who knows -- what their views are. But my view is he was a great man, so.
Brian Czech:Absolutely. Well, you know, you could regale us with political stories left and right. So to speak.
Chris Matthews:I could do that, and I will at your calling.
Brian Czech:Okay. Well, right now we want your insights, particularly with steady-state politics. And, perhaps, we could start with President Carter. It's our understanding that Carter read limits to growth, and then he commissioned the followup of sorts called Global 2000, and even invited the great steady stater E. F. Schumacher to the White House. Clearly, Carter got it about the conflict between economic growth and environmental protection. So Chris, did he ever express an interest in developing public awareness about limits to growth, and possibly even the steady state economy as the alternative?
Chris Matthews:You know, he did read the Club of Rome report -- apparently -- certainly talked like he did. And I read it at the time. And I have to tell you that it showed in, of course, the gas lines, as a symptom, we were waiting in line. I mean, I remember waiting on the New Jersey Turnpike, and you had to go on odd -- you had to go the odd days, depending on your license number, what the last digit was, the last letter. You had to have your tank almost empty before you could actually get gas at the next gas station, and then you had to wait in line. So people got the message, there was something going on about resources. But, of course, the Club of Rome and the whole idea of resources goes beyond energy, and fossil fuel. It was the idea that we're a limited number of -- limited number of resources on this planet, a growing number of people, and there's going to have to be a reckoning at some point. And I think, Carter, to his credit, or discredit, was a very tight guy about money, for example. He was very aware of costs and limits. And if you -- I've just been reading his diary, and I tell you, he talks all about, we can't afford this, we can't afford that, his big fight with Kennedy, Ted Kennedy, in their primary fight in '80 was about the fact that we can't do everything we want to do right now in health care. So he had a sort of a farmers and small business notion of costs and income. And he knew that they had to match. And he was just by nature a man who understood limits. And sometimes that came across in money. And it came across in the heating, turning the thermostat down, putting on your sweater, recognizing costs, in a big sense. So I think it wasn't hard for him to buy into the idea that the planet has its limits.
Brian Czech:Yeah. Well, I don't suppose you wrote the so-called Malaise speech. Did you?
Chris Matthews:No, I did not. I would not -- I didn't touch that. I will take credit for the kickoff speech in -- down South, when he started the campaign on Labor Day of 1980. I did write one on youth employment and education. I wrote a lot of the political speech. I was on the plane last couple of weeks. And I know, I dig the politics, but that -- as you called, the so-called Malaise speech -- went over well. And then he fired -- he took the resignation of the entire cabinet in a couple of days. And that's what hurt him politically, it looked like chaos. You know, that was not intended.
Brian Czech:Yeah. And well, I hate it when they call it the Malaise speech too, because I thought it was exactly the leadership we needed then. And even more so the leadership we desperately need now. Here's a quote from that speech, Carter said, "every act of energy conservation, is more than just common sense. I tell you, it is an act of patriotism." And he also said, "we've learned that piling up material goods cannot fill the emptiness of lives, which have no confidence or purpose." End quotes, and I say"yes!"
Chris Matthews:Yeah, I know. And, that's Jimmy Carter. I -- you know, that's not exactly a rah-rah session, the cheerleading department. It doesn't make people go giddy, like whereas Ronald Reagan always spoke in terms of exhilaration of the audience and effectively so. He made people feel good. He went to the Statue of Liberty to begin his campaign that very day -- labor day 1980. And there he is with his short sleeves, rolled-up sleeves, acting like Mr. American cowboy and everything's great. And he was really good at that. You know, morale officer, you might call him.
Brian Czech:Yeah, yeah.
Chris Matthews:Jimmy Carter was coldly realistic. He was stoic in his own life. You know, I don't think he had a problem explaining the turn down the thermostat, instead of just buying a gas guzzler. And, you know, the fact that Ronald Reagan -- you know, I understood the romance of Reagan, I'm certainly not a Republican hater. I'm not. But I thought that the first thing he did practically when he moved into the White House was take the solar panels off the roof by executive order. I mean, excuse me? Who were they hurting? You know?
Brian Czech:And then he appointed James Watt as Secretary of the Interior.
Chris Matthews:Well, he wanted just big car, lots, lots of gas in the tank, low mileage, showoff. I mean, it was that sort of -- I don't know what...
Brian Czech:He was Trump before there was Trump, and -- you know anything to spend more and stimulate the economy.
Chris Matthews:Flaunting resource reduction, and -- what's the word -- dig more wells, pump more gas, and that's the solution. Well, obviously, it's not the solution. But I don't know how we look at these-- look at the population growth. And one of the things you study in economic development is that because of colonization in the Third World, developing world, you do reach countries with health care. They have health care they never had before. So there's no Malthusian reduction of population. The people in the country like I've served in the Peace Corps, they do get some health care out -- the missionaries bring health care and some education,[inaudible] religion, they teach people how to survive. But the population growth is still huge. I mean, you have eight kids, and the look at the numbers coming out of Africa and the resource depletion. One of the things I noticed -- and this is pretty rudimentary, but I learned it myself -- if you rely on a subsistence farm, and you grow corn, maize, and you have to live on that all year round, so you have a crop comes in, in the fall, and you reap it, and you know, hide it somewhere and you keep it, somehow preserve it, and you try to live all year on that. Well, you have to have heat to cook the maize, you can't just eat raw corn. So you have to have usually, unfortunately for the wife, the wife in the family goes looking for wood. And she'll go for miles, miles, and miles or more each day, further and further away, looking for trees that have fallen down, branches that are available, or pull the tree up. In so, in Africa, you can see the loss of trees of wood, for firewood -- it's gone. So there's a case of where population grows, because of health care. And the supply of a basic need -- wood -- disappears. So what happens? To me, it's just tragedy. I don't know how people make it. And I-- and this is just an exponential reality. More people looking for wood, wood going further away, there no trees that can possibly grow fast enough with the trees that the Chinese don't buy, I should say. It's awesome. It's an awesome challenge. And these people just-- think of that image you have of Africans -- usually of an African woman with a bunch of, a bundle of trees on her head, carrying it home to cook the meal. It's something. So just depletion of resources right in front of your face.
Brian Czech:Yeah. You know, it's been great so far, Chris. And next we want to talk some more about some policy issues. But first we need to take a short non-commercial break with James Lamont. Take it away, James.
James Lamont:Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying the show. Like many of our guests on The Steady Stater, Chris Matthews is a signatory to the CASSE position statement on economic growth. He is one of many notable signatories among our ranks, including esteemed scientists, economists and other thinkers. You can see a list of these notables by going to our website, steadystate.org, and clicking the Position button. Then click the Signatures and Endorsements link in the right-hand menu. You may see a name that proves useful in convincing friends and family members to sign the position themselves. And now back to the show.
Brian Czech:Welcome back steady staters. We're talking with Chris Matthews of Hardball lore. You know, Schumacher called for the maximum of well-being with the minimum of consumption. Can you envision any of today's politicians -- American politicians -- calling for the maximum of well-being with the minimum of consumption?
Chris Matthews:No! Well, I do think it this way -- and maybe this is strange -- but when I think about the population, human and animal, that we discovered when we came to, the Europeans came to America, would have probably gone on forever, you know.
Brian Czech:Yeah, could have there were relatively steady states among the tribal --
Chris Matthews:You know, they get bear skins to get through the winter with, used for clothing. They don't have any industry, they don't burn up too much, they just have occasional fire to survive with. They don't glut themselves. And that everything really looks the same millions of years later, it's the same water, the same trees, the same beauty of the land. They fit. They fit. The Native Americans fit into the environment. Isn't that interesting? I don't think we fit into the environment.
Brian Czech:No. Okay, now so if you were an outsider politician concerned less with party politics or even electoral success, than with advancing the steady state economy, how would you go about it?
Chris Matthews:Well, certainly renewable energy. And I think, you know, windmills don't bother me. I think they're a good use of natural benefits. And I think solar panels are amazing. You can actually reduce your -- you get in, you get yourself into it, what d'ya call it, a"positive energy bill," where you actually creating more -- you're creating more energy than you're using, and it's not hurting you. So I think looking at just a simple thing of being state of the art, and using technology to avoid using up resources is a smart, honest thing to do.
Brian Czech:That buy you some time, but then ultimately, you know, you can't expect perpetual GDP growth, regardless of tech. And if you did have it, you destroy every other species on the planet. So, how about advancing the steady state economy politically? Like, what would be a strategy there? Would you try to win a local race and then work your way up?
Chris Matthews:Well, you know-- I'm not -- you know. I do know that people learn to recycle. And it becomes a positive habit. And it doesn't happen everywhere. But where it does happen, it has a beneficial advantage in this term of resource reuse. I think it becomes an ethic, you don't throw trash on the street -- nobody throws trash, you know, it's rare -- the kids I think -- on Friday nights, throw beer bottles into the side of the road, I was wondering what that night was like. But most people don't throw trash out the window of their car, they don't. People learn certain things about that-- they pick up the dog doo after the dogs been by. They do learn habits. And people learn habits that they're sort of proud of. And it's a statement of good sense and class, if you will, that you know what you're doing as a citizen. Look at this. I've been to places now where nobody smokes. I mean, from a time where I grew up in the 50s, where everybody's father smoked -- I wouldn't -- my father smoked, I thought it was cool. When I thought about it, because everybody seemed to smoke in the movies. You know, I have an occasional cigar, but I gotta tell you, it's not something you walk into somebody's house and light up a cigarette. All this change because of culture. You know, how many people walk into somebody's house and light up a cigarette? Oh, come on. There's no ashtrays around. I mean, not everywhere, not everywhere, but big parts of the country, the big city, certainly, in the burbs. So habits change. And, you know, I didn't like it when Mike Bloomberg said you can't have a big Coke. But that was his thing. But cigarettes and bars used to be part of the the ambience, a smoky bar -- I didn't mind it -- but the people that work there did, apparently, the unions did. And because they were getting sick -- I guess, potentially -- because they're working all day in a smoky environment. Look, all I'm telling you, Brian, you know this, is culture can change habits.
Brian Czech:Yes.
Chris Matthews:So we're still gonna face the problem of population and the size of this planet. And the age of -- what's the age, what's the age? What's the average age of somebody on this planet right now? 29? Or something? I don't know -- you got a big challenge there. You know, I wish I'd give as much thought to the Club of Rome report, as I did, I really did at the time. I really thought about it. And maybe I was more revolutionary. I don't know.
Brian Czech:Yeah, we're gonna come back to that. Because I know you did pay attention to that. And well, for now, there's a lot of disappointment about the Green Party of the United States, because instead of focusing on, well, green issues, they seem to just take whatever social issue arises and put themselves way off to the left, kind of like boxing themselves into an ever-tinier corner. But now what if the Green Party said"first things first" and focused hard on the environment, basically, just riding the fence on all the other issues? How far could they get on the ballot in that approach?
Chris Matthews:Well, I think you've seen that, you've seen the deputies elected in Europe, and they can go very far. And I'm not sure if they're technically involved in the new German government, but they're growing in power, in probably the healthiest political country in Europe, Germany. In other words, they know how to hold elections. They're clean about it, and they lead Europe. The Green Party in the United States has become a vehicle, as you are suggesting, a vehicle for somebody who wants to run to the left of the Democratic Party, whether it's Ralph Nader, is Jean [sic] Stein. It just says to me vote left, and it takes -- you're right the social issues. You don't think of them as primarily interested in climate, even, as a code word for a general concern about resource depletion, and living on this planet like -- the last guy in politics I can think it was Jerry Brown. He talked about Spaceship Earth. Remember that? And, and the fact we're living on it, basically it contained geography. And we better respect it.
Brian Czech:Jerry Brown, you're talking about?
Chris Matthews:Yeah. Jerry Brown. He, you know, he got, he was called whatever. Moonbeam, Governor moonbeam, which finally, Mike Royko of Chicago, gave him that nickname, took it back in later years and said that wasn't fair. Because he was talking about, you know, you and he, Brian, could talk to Jerry Brown, on the same level, he's a very big thinker. And he's a speculative thinker, which is rare in politics.
Brian Czech:Right.
Chris Matthews:He thinks beyond the next election.
Brian Czech:Yeah.
Chris Matthews:He always did. And it hurt him.
Brian Czech:Yeah, hurt him. Yeah. The electoral cycle didn't...
Chris Matthews:He did get elected to four terms as Governor of California and ended up with a balanced budget surplus, I believe, and he knew how to tell people know you can't have it. May be one of the few Democrats that can actually say, No, you can't have it. We can't have preschool, because we don't have the money. He actually said that. We don't have the money, you know.
Brian Czech:Well Chris, you're obviously an astute political monitor. So I have sort of a barometric question here -- has the European degrowth movement come onto your radar yet?
Chris Matthews:No. And I do -- I pay attention to the headlines in that. And I noticed that whenever there's a decline in population growth, there's a big danger sign that goes up in the headline. I mean have you noticed?
Brian Czech:Yeah, yeah.
Chris Matthews:That's the big danger sign. Not that there's too much population growth, but there's a depopulation growth. And that becomes a horror sign in Russia, and now in China, and I guess, in Europe itself, Western Europe. And I don't know this is -- there's a reckoning that I don't think it's reached the voters table yet. But it's on yours.
Brian Czech:Yes. All right, Chris, I want to ask you, which of your occupations have given you the most influence in American politics?
Chris Matthews:Well, let me start with the personal feeling about them. Because then I can get to the big picture. I loved writing a column. I did it twice a week for 15 years. I've been-- for the San Francisco Papers, and I loved doing it. I loved being able to go anywhere in the world, and write from where I'm at. I loved it. I had complete freedom. And I never got edited except for facts. And I loved that. I loved being on with President Carter writing his speeches. There's nothing as much fun if you're pretty young-- I was in my early 30s -- to knowing that you're typing on your Selectric 2 typewriter, something that the President of the United States is gonna say possibly on the next stop on the plane. And you're taking off at 45 degrees. Those Air Force planes just go right up in the air. And you're typing at a diagonal angle and you're writing -- I loved it. I loved it. I loved covering political conventions like, in New York City, we were on Broadway right out there. And I was with Howard Fineman, and a guy jumped over the fence and tried to knock me over, because he was demonstrating against Abu Ghraib, our mistreatment of prisoners over in Iraq. And it's something else. I enjoyed being with Bishop Tutu when he got to vote the first time, at age 62. I loved talking to the East Germans and asking them what it was like to have freedom and what freedom meant to them. I loved talking to the Protestants and the Catholics up in Northern Ireland and realizing what that fight was about, to some extent. I've been very lucky. I would like -- Tip O'Neill, you mentioned, I was his top guy. I'd be with him every morning, when he's leader of the opposition, basically, but also cutting wonderful deals with Ronald Reagan. I mean, they knew how to deal together. I loved all that. So I'm kinda happy. The Capitol Police time, I actually enjoyed it, it was a patronage job that I took so I could work in the office during the early part of the day. So I'd work in the morning, early afternoon, and then go put on my police uniform and my .38 special pistol at 3 in the afternoon, and work to 11. So I was working all around the clock. It was my first job coming back from Africa in the Peace Corps. So I wanted to -- I wanted to get a job, and that was the one job that was offered me. So I did like being a capital policeman, and I felt a lot for those guys, and perhaps to some extent with them, when they went through the hell of January 6 this year, and I can-- I know their patriotism. And a lot of them were probably guys who this time voted for Trump, or both times. But they were very patriotic about the -- certainly very patriotic about that building and protecting it. So you know, I've been great. I've been I've been lucky. I'm not great -- I'm lucky to be having these jobs.
Brian Czech:Oh, yeah. And well, you did great at them. And I think that's why you had so many good ones. You kept doing good at the previous one, so.